This week's episode dives into how fractional CMOs can revolutionize marketing for manufacturers and B2B companies, offering strategic leadership without the expense of a full-time hire. Victoria Hajjar, founder of Ugli Ventures, shares her expertise on addressing common marketing struggles such as poor ROI, misaligned sales strategies, and outdated approaches to growth.
Key moments include an exploration of Victoria’s Scalable Marketing Machine framework, a proven four-step system for building marketing operations, and insights into why manufacturers need to embrace modern marketing to remain competitive. The conversation highlights how fractional CMOs can save businesses from costly marketing missteps and unlock their potential for predictable growth.
Listeners will hear about the benefits of working with a fractional CMO versus a full-service agency, and where each option is most suitable. This episode is ideal for CEOs, marketing leaders, and decision-makers in manufacturing or B2B companies looking to modernize their approach and drive meaningful results.
Victoria Hajjar is a seasoned fractional CMO and founder of Ugli Ventures, with over 15 years of experience helping businesses scale through strategic marketing leadership. Known for her innovative Scalable Marketing Machine framework, Victoria is passionate about empowering teams and supporting female founders in reaching new heights.
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Bill: Thank you for joining the Missing Half podcast where we're discovering what's missing in manufacturing and B2B marketing. Today, I'm joined by a very special guest, Victoria Hajjar. Victoria, thank you for joining us.
Victoria: Thank you, Bill, for having me. I'm so excited to talk about up-leveling marketing.
Bill: I love it. So Victoria, one of the things where I'm really excited to talk to you about, because I'm very passionate about this subject as well, is the fractional CMO model and how this is really, I mean, it's been around for a while, but I would argue that it's not proliferated. It's not widely known and it is certainly not widely adopted. So, you know, when you think about the fractional CMO, and maybe like what's one of the one or two biggest impacts that position can have on a company right away that is not available to companies who aren't taking advantage of the fractional CMO model?
Victoria: Yeah, you know, I think that I'm many of the folks that I speak with and I myself am constantly surprised by the level of businesses, the revenue level of businesses that I've come in contact with that just simply don't have anyone in the marketing lead role. Right. And so what tends to happen, and I think that you and I are probably aligned on this, is a lot of times, especially in the B2B space, especially in manufacturing where so many of these handshake relationships really drive revenue for many, many years. You know, folks, CEOs don't often start looking at the marketing department until something catastrophic has happened. Like you've lost a big client. This is usually in the inflection point that I have intros to companies where they just lost one of their big whales because again, as a manufacturer, you only need some of these key relationships in sort of the antiquated model, right? This handshake model. What I think is so interesting as, you know, our boomers are kind of moving out of these active roles in some of these legacy companies and we have younger, fresher blood coming in, I think now more than ever, it's very important to set up your strategic marketing systems to have a professional presence that is aligned with your brand and your business goals, that's something that's constantly churning so you can have that vibrant pipeline for that sales team. And it doesn't rely only on those relationships that you have, right? Because not only, you know, are the manufacturers or the business kind of leaders going to be retiring and kind of leaving those roles and their predecessors coming in, but also those partnership companies, right? So across the board, this is going to be happening. So what's the, what's the missing piece, right? What's the missing piece and what does, do fractional, CEO, chief marketing officers or marketing directors, however you want to call it, fill is really bringing in this high, high level expertise, right? And experience in how to create sales focused marketing strategies and really how to steer the ship and make sure that we have compliance when it comes to production when it comes to ROI because often I've seen and again, it doesn't matter if your company's 1 million in revenue or you know upwards of 200 million in revenue. You know, if you have a marketing manager type executor controlling and just heads-down executing and not building what I call the the machine around your marketing effort, then you're going to see a lot of output, right? Maybe a lot of expenditure and not really be seeing that ROI. And what it does is it creates this, really it creates this distaste for your CEO or your stakeholders to keep investing in marketing because they think that it actually is not driving revenue. And it's simply because it could be the strategy is not laid out properly, things are not maybe being tracked or monitored properly. And we actually are not understanding what success looks like for our company, right? Even answering the simple question, what is the purpose of the marketing department in our business is a very important question to ask. And it's not same across the board for different businesses. So that is really, I think what the fractional executive can offer, sort of lending that expertise, that experience. Really a deep understanding of who needs to be on the bus and what are the key metrics that need to drive the outcomes that we're looking for without needing to carry the burden of that large salary, which a lot of B2B businesses, they maybe don't see the value in it or they don't have the appetite to really have a 200K plus a year C-suite role for marketing.
Bill: No, I think that's so right, Victoria. And I think there's a couple of things you said there. Number one, I think we have to look at whether, what is the catalyst for engaging a fractional CMO is usually in, and you can always break everything down into different constructs. But let's look at it from a reactive proactive standpoint. A reactive is we just saw a major account. We're seeing declining sales year over year, quarter over quarter with no end in sight. We're struggling to enter new markets. We can't launch new products. So that's, you know, we have a problem. The other side of that, I think, and what I think you and I would agree we encourage companies to do is if they have an existing marketing function, and I'm not saying they have a C-suite level person, but they have the person by job role or title who is responsible for that marketing. And like you said, they need support from a strategic standpoint that can only be gathered by the hundreds of touch points that like people like yourself and I get from dealing with the market to really be able to diagnose that problem and really uncover those opportunities. And I think we're starting to see hopefully and through conversations like this and promoting these, this conversation, we'll see more people get proactive because that person by job role or title who's in charge of marketing needs strategic support. And let's be honest, if the CEO, the CFO, the other C-suite people do not play in this space and they have that old mindset, it is the boomer or the trade show or the handshake mindset, which worked for a long time, thankfully, but now it's a new world. So I think that's an important thing to think about. And I also want to explore, like what you just talked about, I think is so important. When you look at a company that's doing, let's say, $100 to $200 million a year, and they don't want to hire a CMO, I think you talked about it you hit the nail on the head, $200,000 a year, whatever the package is going to be. But then let's explore, what are you getting for that money? Because then they're going to require resources beyond that to execute, right? Whether that's an internal team, whether that's an agency to actually execute. Because just like you and I are great strategists, we also don't do all of the clicking on things. We have teams to do that. So maybe talk a little bit about that. You know, what the difference between the fractional relationship is as opposed to a full-time relationship.
Victoria: Yeah, well, I think that, and honestly, I think the way that I work is maybe a little bit different than other fractionals. So, when I come in, there are some fractional executives that will be much more consultative, right? Someone that's kind of just gonna give you the strategy, but still need someone to execute it. And that role doesn't, there's a different appetite for fractionals that are actually going to get their hands dirty and actually be the, you know, be the lead actually be the leader and actually with their own hands manage it. So this is what I I believe to be the most important piece of the puzzle right to beat to have a figurehead in that role. That's going to be accountable to the stakeholders and be the leader to the team coaching the team and managing the outcomes of the team. So having that key role now What is the difference between having it full-time or fractionally? For me, I'm working with several clients at a time with several different teams. For me, I bring in a project manager to actually be the task bunny, the task rabbit, just make sure everything's getting done. And then I come in and again, it's a weekly meeting with the team, the internal team. And again, I say internal, but it's usually a combination of, we usually have agency executing some things. Perhaps we have some project workers working on specific pieces like a website upgrade or a copywriting project or something like that. And then we usually have maybe someone that's more like a social media manager if that's applicable or someone that's managing the emails internal. So usually it's a combination of people and I come in and I lead them and I up level them and I be a leader and I'm a leader to them. But again, being able to kind of sit in that C-suite position, but kind of pop in, you know, with several clients throughout the week. So you're sort of sharing my time among a few others, which at the end of the day, because it's all very similar work, just having that alone is just more experience to see what's working for their clients and kind of bring that collective knowledge. But it's interesting because I feel like, and this may, you may have a different opinion of this, but I, you know, I started my career sort of building out the agency model. And what I found was, you know, the agency is an agency to control a hundred percent of the marketing. I think that agencies are a wonderful tool, right? But I do find that if you have a company that is not committing committed to owning any part of the marketing strategy themselves. That's very dangerous because things happen. You know, agencies could move in a different direction or drop you, right? that's possible. If you have an outside entity being the one that is the only group that understands how marketing works, how lead production works in your business, it can be very dangerous. And so having a either a full-time marketing executive or even a fractional one that will own the strategy and be the sort of the figurehead that sits in between the CEO and the execution team or the stakeholders, right? And the execution team is incredibly important. And I think it's something that we can't give away. I think a lot of B2B companies, they understand you need to know how sales works in your business or else you don't have a business. But I go a step further, you need to know how marketing and sales works in your business, right? And that needs to be the IP of the business itself. So, you know, it's, you know, agency can be an incredible resource for that strategic piece and for the execution piece. But I spoke, I've spoken to many, many agencies where, you know, they also want to interface with someone that speaks their language, right? So oftentimes an agency speaking to a CEO, that has no experience in marketing, which is, I'm sure a lot of cases you've found yourself in, it's incredibly challenging because someone that doesn't have that background in marketing themselves maybe won't see the value or understand the strategy that you're even suggesting laying out. I often act as a translator and often agencies won't, oftentimes, yes, they'll, will be accountable to their KPIs. And it's great if you guys are controlling everything, but oftentimes agencies are executing pieces in conjunction with an in-house team. Right? I'm sure you found your...
Bill: Yeah, that's really what we prefer is a hybrid approach because, a number of reasons. Number one, we cannot have the touch points with the company that an internal marketing resource can't. Yeah.
Victoria: It's not possible. You can't do that with all of the companies that you work with. It's impossible. And not daily communication. Yeah.
Bill: Absolutely. So if we have someone who by title or role is that marketing, you know, leader at the company that we can like work with in that hybrid model and that we do our part that we can do really well and they do their part. That's what we find is the most successful. We have had some relationships over the past 10 years specifically that were engagements where companies want us to take over the entire function. They were frustrating because we had to spend so much extra time and resources to try and make those successful. And then also as soon as we left the room, whether it was the Zoom room or their boardroom, we were out of sight and out of mind. And you need somebody on the property or engaged with that community every day. So, yeah, I agree. And I think the other point you're bringing to bear there is the fact that when you look at tactical delivery, project management, and strategy. Those are three roles that a fractional CMO can impact. But then we also have to recognize based on the volume of activity, who's going to sit in what chair and what can actually be done. I love the way you frame that though, because the consultative I think is a given in the fractional CMO. The way you're taking that to the next level of do it with you, with the project manager and then executing, because let's be honest, most of the companies that you do consultation only with, they'll love the plan. They'll be like, yeah, this looks like a clear path. It looks like we've got some great hypothesis we can test around building the right IP and then identifying who we are and how to go to market and then accelerating and scaling those things. But then they, even if you give them a very detailed plan, they don't know how to manage and execute it and bring it to market. Another thing that you bring to the table, Victoria, is you mentioned before coaching. You also offer another layer of kind of service that allows you to maybe, I'll let you say it, but from my understanding, but go ahead and explain that coaching role.
Victoria: This is a very interesting use case that honestly was created without me. It was created by the market. So essentially what I have found is, you know, my capacity as a one-to-one fractional CMO, it gets capped, right? So I only can work honestly with four or five clients at a time because it is a very high touch service, right? So what I discovered was there are many CEOs that really wanted to up level their existing marketing leader. So what happens is, that in many cases you have, you know, especially in this growth and scale company, A, you've got a lot of family-owned businesses. So I have some scenarios in manufacturing specifically that the, the children have taken, like children or nieces or nephews or whatever have been in the company for many, many, many years. And honestly, sometimes women find themselves in the marketing lead role because they're a woman. Obviously like some uncle or father are like, she'll do marketing, right? And so I've run into situations where I have super ambitious, very passionate, very deep connection to the organization that have found themselves leading the marketing, but they're not trained as marketers. And so when you have marketers that are in that marketing role, they're only going to be able to get to the level of skill of normally like what their leadership is. And if they don't have any leadership to them that are mark, that are experienced in marketing, they're going to hit a ceiling. And then there's a lot of frustration, right? And so I've been, so I've created what I call this. So my methodology is called the Scalable Marketing Machine. Right? So whether I'm executing it myself or I'm teaching it through my accelerator program, I have a framework that I work clients through that put those puzzle pieces together to be able to build their marketing machine. Cause that's kind of the goal, right? That we have something working as a machine that we can predictably get those like inputs and outputs. So through the accelerator model, I'm I've packaged up all the IP of this, this machine, the scalable marketing machine program that I've developed over 15 plus years career as a marketing director and a fractional chief marketing officer. And I teach my methodology to these marketing leaders. So I have a VP of marketing in the program, have a marketing director in this program as well. I'm hired by the CEO, but they enroll their marketing lead in. And so they get you know, my templates and my playbooks and stuff. And then we meet every Friday as a group, which is so powerful because as a marketer, you know, this, there's such power in understanding what other people are doing in their business. What's working for others, right? As simple as, know, what's your row as, you know, on these ads, right? Or, you know, what conferences have, have you found a lot of opportunities from? Like all of this intel we get to share when we meet each and every week through this accelerator model you know, they get me as their sort of marketing leader to ask their questions, to review their data with them, to work through their people issues, and also, of course, to match with providers. So this is where, of course, like we work together, right? Because, you know, if there's a need, I kind of open up my little black book of all of these wonderful agencies and individual contributors, whether it's SEO experts or copywriters or social media manager or content creators that I've worked with over the years and can and be able to kind of match them with the right resources. So that's been incredible. And it's one of those things where, you know, after a year of running this, this model and just sort of looking at the end of the year and saying like, well, what really is working in this model and looking at, you know, how funny it is that I didn't expect that CEOs would want to hire me to up level their marketing team. But it's something that people have loved and have found a lot of value in. And it's something that I've loved as well, because I love teaching, as well as doing that. It's so valuable to be in the game, right? So to continue to be serving those one-to-one clients and having my hands dirty, and then also being able to disseminate that knowledge to these marketing leaders as I'm teaching. And honestly, my favorite relationship with clients is to work more in an interim capacity, right? I would be able to set up all of the systems, of build out the right team, the right org chart, kind of get all of those metrics, those like KPIs in order based on that strategy. And then my dream or my hope is that they will have the appetite to bring on that full-time role, right? That the client role. Because I think it is, I don't think it's a long-term solution forever to not have a marketing leader.
Bill: No, yeah, we have to stand up that function in every organization. And however that function is stood up, whether it's through fractional support, agency support, in-house, even if you want to go to the extent, almost no one does, half-timers, part-timers, giggers, the whole nine yards, right? I mean, that's really, while it's available, no one knows how to leverage that really in industry. One of the things I'd like to kind of explore is I know you are very passionate about working with female founders. And maybe let's talk a little bit about the role. And I might get myself in trouble with this conversation, but let's go down this path anyway. Yeah, let's see where we end up and see if Bill gets canceled. So I think one of the things I've seen over the past 20 plus years in the marketing space, working with manufacturers and B2B companies, is when we look at the folks who started those businesses, they were predominantly male and also they, and if we look at psychology and all those things, men in those spaces are mostly engineers. They're very technical people. They are more interested in things than they are in people. And when we look at the marketing that 20 years ago, it was focused on features and benefits and it was all product and or company-centric. Whenever we see the transition to then like you said, okay, they have other people involved who want to become involved generationally. And there's young women who are accomplished, who want to be part of the family business. And they are probably less interested in things unless they were engineers or very technical professionals. So they have more interest in people and the processes. And then the owner, let's say it's dad or Uncle Joe says, well, why don't you go do marketing? Two things, one, I don't want to deal with it. So they get pushed into the marketing role. I wonder if there is then, and just give me a second, this is going somewhere. I wonder if there is then a correlation that we have seen with the increase in participation of female marketing professionals with the movement towards more mission-driven, values-driven and customer-centric communication because in general, we look at psychology, females are more inclined to be interested in people and relationships, especially if you're in a non-technical role. There's a lot of stereotypes and we could each mention people.
Victoria: Yes. Of course we recognize that there are plenty of women that are sort of, cause I definitely listen like, and I can say this practically, I have female founders that I work with that are exactly how you described, but I have like, especially a couple of mine that are completely the opposite of that, right? Completely opposite of that. But, but generally speaking, like, yes, like, of course, like you see this in the day to day. And I of course interact with so many marketing, female marketing leaders or CEOs that are more sort of marketing driven, vision, mission driven in their companies. And that absolutely is a trend. the question is, you see, so what's the question? The question is, do you see that even in the space of manufacturing and B2B, a movement towards, know, and branding sort of pointing less to products and features and more to the mission and the values and the emotions?
Bill: I don't know about the like more the mission, the vision and the customer centric problem solution frame. And is that a more natural progression that has occurred because of the demographic shift in the participants in the profession? I don't know. I mean, let's be honest. This is a question that we would have to run tremendous studies across thousands of participants. But yeah.
Victoria: Yes, this is so anecdotal, but I do have some thoughts on this because, you know, it's interesting. I feel like if I, and I love reading kind of the classic marketing books. One that I read recently, which is an excellent book and the author escapes me that's called position. It's called Positioning. but it talks a lot about, you know, it's, it's a book from the seventies talking a lot about sort of like how marketing has sort of changed over the years from like the 70s to like the 90s. And I think one of the huge shifts that we've had in the way things are sold and marketed is towards this movement of, know, when we're trying to sell anything, you know, there is an emotional connection that we want to spark with our prospects. And it doesn't matter if you're selling you know, dishwashers or you're selling, you know, t-shirts or you're selling consulting services. I think, you know, all types of buying decisions are emotional at some deeper level. And I think that, you know, the idea of, of selling and marketing, just highlighting those features and those product features, right. Is, is a little, is antiquated for a couple of reasons, because I think that, you know, and it was so funny in this book Positioning is the book opens and it's written in the seventies talking about how inundated we are with messaging, right? So can you imagine, right? Like, it was, it's one of those moments where you're like, my gosh, like, can you, and I think that, you know, our attention span, just the messages that we’re hit with, I think that just sort of marketing in the, the, from the angle of product, like features and benefits. It doesn't resonate with the current situation. I think we need to develop deep relationships with our prospects and with our customers. And again, in the past, those deep relationships were built through your network and through those handshake relationships, and especially manufacturing. So I have this great, I've worked with a lot of these types of clients, but one of my very dear friends is part of their legacy family business in manufacturing as well. And, you know, I've got to sort of peek into the soft side of, you know, that whole thing. And I remember, you know, being invited to dinners with the dad and the customers and just, you know, and that sort of interaction has been such a cornerstone. But I do believe that there is, that still is very important. But I think that the modern CEOs, the modern kind of sales leaders and our modern customers, they also want to see a very well thought out and functioning marketing piece to any business. We want to understand what are the values of this company, right? Because as more and more competition pops up and more and more businesses are saturated, like entrepreneurship numbers are astronomical, is that this is the way that we kind of stand out. And we can build that positioning in the minds of our prospects and our customers. And it doesn't hinge just on Uncle Joe or Dad's relationship, right? It's actually because people have an idea around what is the brand of this company. What does it stand for that I trust this company? And it doesn't just hinge on this one person. So that's why I think that, you know, that marketing piece is so important. It's only going to become more important. But the other thing that I wanted to mention for any folks listening that are still like not convinced. I think that there has to also be a long game view here because for companies, you know, there's plenty of companies that I've worked with that. Like the website's a mess. They never have had any strategy. There's no nonsensical in terms of like what is this? What does the company stand for and all this stuff and in order to tie all that together, create like a viable strategy, get the right people on the bus and to execute it. Honestly, this is an investment of time. It's not years and years and years, but I would say like eight to twelve months of really setting, do you agree? Setting it up getting the right people on getting the strategy going be able to get that initial feedback and data, iterating and improving on the strategy. And then committing to say like, this is a function in our business that we need to invest in long term is so important. And that's why a lot of times when you bring in these pieces that don't have that real, that are not taking that big ownership piece of the marketing to be able to say, okay, these are the metrics that are important to us as an organization, right? And these are the ones that are going to move the needles in terms of what we need to accomplish and really making sure that those are achieved to show and to prove that ROI. Right. It's incredibly difficult for agencies alone to sit in that spot. Right?
Bill: Well and I think one of the issues we've faced over the past five to seven years is that the supply and demand has been imbalanced. So the supply of agency services, everybody in the agency space was told to hyper niche. Solve for one specific problem. Whenever we would, so let's say the agencies go out and approach the marketing managers and the companies and they, the marketing managers then go find, a niche agency that solves for the problem that was just brought up in the board meeting or just brought up in an internal meeting. And when you start picking those items, it's kind of like saying, okay, in my diet, my personal diet for breakfast and lunch, I'm going to eat whatever I want. But then for dinner, I'll have the the cottage cheese and the peach half. So that cancels out the Mountain Dew and candy bars. Right. So it doesn't create a holistic plan. So I think we're now seeing that so many companies have failed. And like you said earlier, the C-suite gets fatigued by the investment and the lack of consistent, cohesive performance because they think marketing is broken and it doesn't work. No, that's not true. Your marketing doesn't work and your marketing has not performed. I think that supply and demand issue. And now we're seeing more of a switch to companies just saying, listen, we need some of the professional CMO role or a strategic role to handle it all and pull it all together because SEO on its own, lead gen on its own, branding on its own is not going to solve the problem. So I think that's one area. And I think the other issue we have to look at is when, and this is an old saying, and it doesn't even apply to marketing. For a lack of plan, the people perish. If you don't have a strategy, and I don't care if that's your go-to-market strategy, your manufacturing strategy, whatever it is. And so I think that ties it all together. When we don't have a strategy, we can't do these little slices and hope it has an outsized impact in a very, very complex process.
Victoria: You hit the nail on the head 100%. One thing, and I've had the honor of working with some incredible CEOs and founders. And one of my mentors would always say, you build the people and the people build the business. But more than any other department, marketing is an area of the business where this hunt and peck approach that you're speaking of, right? There's no… again, if you don't have someone in that leadership role and that strategic role to bring everyone together, you are not building your people. You're setting them up to fail because you know, the way that you build a cohesive marketing strategy, and there's many ways to conceptualize it. I call it the 24-by-seven marketing flywheel, but in order for that flywheel to work, everyone that's executing things in your marketing need to work together. They need to work together. They need to be a cohesive team. They need to be in conversation. And oftentimes I go into situations where the marketing function, they don't have a regular marketing meeting that brings everyone together. Just very simply. Right? People are not having conversations and they don't even think to ask an agency rep to be on a weekly meeting because an agency and maybe you work to have like a monthly meeting and that's fine. And no one's asking you for a weekly meeting, for example, to come and bring all of these pieces of the puzzle together. And what happens is, that again, you're building this disparate, very siloed effort in the marketing and no one function of the marketing is going to carry the strategy because the strategy are all the pieces together. So when we are not thinking in that way, and I understand why people do, I mean, because marketing is in and of itself has so many pieces of the puzzle. It's not like HR or finance, like where there really is one core outcome, right? Maybe in some cases. Marketing again, in order to achieve a one core outcome, there's so many different inputs that are contributing to the same outcome. So you really need to bring people together. And oftentimes it's like, if the CEO is not doing it and they don't have anyone in the function, they're just, again, maybe having these very disparate conversations or having someone lead that function that just doesn't really know what they're doing, to be honest. Like they don't have that strategic 10,000 foot view.
Bill: So whenever you talk about building it with the people, right? I just want to share a recent situation. I did a consult for a company and they asked me to evaluate the marketing department and help them come up with a plan to move forward. I was like, sure. So I was like, hey, let's look at your accountability chart. Let's look at your job description. So let's look at your project management system, the outputs, the marketing plans last three years, just some like basic information our team needed to read and look at. And it was like I asked them for like, they were like, yeah, we don't have any of that. And
Victoria: Yeah. And I'm so surprised because these were not, not unsophisticated companies. are incredible revenue levels. And I think the thing that is wild is, you know, this type of stuff that happens on every layer of growth. I think that the one thing, you know, another, you know, reason that, that I get approached by companies is, is oftentimes and probably, you know, it's either like a big climb is being lost or whatever, or there's been a revenue plateau, right? Like they've hit a ceiling. And, you know, oftentimes it's not like a wildly different strategy that's going to unlock that revenue. Oftentimes it's like just that, you know, locking in some efficiencies, like creating efficiencies in the department can unlock so, much because things just have gotten bloated. They're very unstrategic, so things are not working all together. So you're not getting the output, the outcome that you could be getting just for lack of these simple things like job descriptions being organized, org chart, a project management tool that makes sense, right? So again, and it's one of those things where, you know, it keeps getting probably worse and worse. And sometimes people are just like, I'm just going to turn a blind eye until this gets so painful or we have to deal with it, right? And so, and oftentimes it's tough, but it doesn't have to be that way. It just takes some forward thinking. And again, it's like appreciation that marketing does hold a role even in B2B, very B2B manufacturing sort of classical traditional verticals, right? It still does have a role. Maybe it doesn't, and I think this is where people get confused, you know? The marketing function in a B2B manufacturing role is wildly different than what it would be in an e-commerce, right? And I think that, and you know, it's crazy because oftentimes, you know, we need the CEOs to align and the stakeholders align on, what is the most important outcome? Because in some cases that could be on the brand awareness side, right? Making sure that our brand is known enough and trusted enough that it makes life easier for our sales team, right? That that in and of itself brings those leads, right? So maybe one of our highest, our highest powers here is really the strengthening of the brand. And that's what we should be focused on. And then other times it's like, no, we got to get, you know, we got to book calls, right? But it depends on what the business model is. And so it's going to be very different, but sometimes we have, you know, these B2B manufacturing companies that expect the marketing team to be delivering leads to the sales team when it just, that's not how their sales process works. So there's a disconnect there. So they're holding the marketing team accountable for metrics that are not part of their sales process. It's not really how they work. Right. And so you have to be, you have to create or understand that there is incredible value that we can generate in marketing. And sometimes that doesn't mean that marketing is making the sales for you, but we are in a supportive role to the sales team, right? We are enabling the sales team to produce more and to produce at a higher level. Right.
Bill: Yeah, absolutely. Victoria, think that that that's right on.
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Bill: I want to switch gears here for a second because you said something and I think it's so important and I don't want us to miss it. You mentioned a few minutes ago that in an eight to 12 month period, we can see turnaround and I want to set up a frame and then let's talk about it. Five years ago, if you were a company that was way behind and you looked at your immediate competitors and the industry leaders and the Fortune 500 companies, and you looked at their marketing performance, that was probably really out of reach. And you were talking about three to five years of consistent, large investment to get anywhere near nipping at their heels. Our position today is that it has never been easier to catch up quicker and more cost effectively because of the maturity of the agency space, the maturity of ideas like fractional CMOs and the technology, AI, all of the stuff we, you know, and all the tools we can use. It's never been easier and more cost-effective to catch up more quickly than it is today. Could you maybe talk about your perspective on that and how we, we don't need $10 million. We don't need 10 years. We can move very quickly.
Victoria: Yes. Well, it's interesting because in one case, I work with a national commercial roofing company. And what's incredible is that this company in a very short period of time with a laughable marketing budget has become a marketing leader. We just recently had an incredible merger. So they are taking over the country and they're sincerely the leaders in their space for commercial roofing, simply because we have tied together and given them a cohesive marketing strategy, a cohesive marketing presence, where honestly in that space, no one else is doing that. So just by the sheer volume of getting their stuff together, they've already been able to grow by leaps and bounds because compared to the competition that don't have a clue, right? Because they have, again, handshake relationships. Their sort of legacy team has never invested or thought about, right? But as this CEO is a little bit of a younger guy, he's in his early 40s, he knew how important this was. And so in addition to the handshake relationships, because they've got these big national clients, in addition to the conferences, they have built out this systemized, organized and strategic marketing function for their business and have been able to see incredible growth in a very short period of time. And for anyone that's listening that's not convinced, this leaps and bounds. This is a moment in time. Because I'm going to tell you, in the next 10, 15 years, as more 40-year-olds and even 50-year-olds get into these really high-level roles where the 60s and 70s guys are are retiring, they're just, they’re done. It's going to be commonplace for the competition to have all of their systems, all of their marketing really tight, their brand really tight. And so it's going to be more difficult to grow by those leaps and bounds, but now we have this opportunity, this opportunity to sort of make this investment now and get ahead of the curve and quickly get into that position of market leader in your space, right? The entry is very low here.
Bill: Yes, agreed. Yes. And I think if that's, you so one of the things we try and do on the Missing Half podcast is discover what's missing. And I think one of the biggest things that's missing is an understanding by companies of how close they are. There's a famous motivational speaker, Jim Rohn, R-O-H-N, who is like kind of like the Godfather to some of these folks who are very, very popular right now, like Dan Martell and Tony Robbins and stuff like that. And he said life is like a combination lock and there's 10 combinations and everybody thinks they're way off and every number and every tumbler needs changed when really if there's 10, you probably have eight of them right. And the last two maybe just need tweaked. I really believe that is true for most companies. They have good brands. They have good mission vision values. They have great stories. They have a culture and they just need to communicate that in a systematic way. They need to get organized and they need to stop treating marketing like it's a dead cat or whatever you want to call it, right? That nobody wants to, yeah.
Victoria: You you are you know, it's so funny because one of the things that I believe very strongly in is what I call what well, I think I call it. No, I think it came from Tony Robbins, which is the 10 degree shift. This concept of the 10 degree shift. Yeah. No, it's it's his idea. Not mine I was gonna say it's my idea because he talks about the golf swing. He you know, I in a lot of his speeches he talks about the golf swing and he says, know oftentimes it's this tiniest 10 degree shift that's going to make that, you know, have a more precise outcome. And it could not be more true when it comes to sales and marketing and you mentioned communication. So I just want to go for a minute through the framework that I work clients through.
Bill: Yes, please, please.
Victoria: So mine is always, it's a four step approach. And the first step in this process is always about brand communication. And it's not brand like your colors and your logo and what is your mission and your vision. But what's more important because the companies that I work with have these things in place, right? But oftentimes they're not communicating any of it or they're doing a very poor job of communicating, right? So it's almost like, you know, do you know, if we do a, what I call it's a brand clarity session, we kind of clarify what are all these most important pieces of the brand and then we audit, you know, is this coming through on your website? Is this coming through on your sales calls and in your sales enablement material? And we figure out what needs to be upgraded there. The second step is doing an audit on your 24-by-7 marketing flywheel. Now, whether you conceptualize it as a flywheel or not, everyone has this system in place. Some people call it the client journey. There's many different ways of thinking about the individual steps, but in some way you need to have a process for reaching new clients, converting them into paying customers, making them happy and getting referrals and testimonials and case studies and everything out of them. So we look at this 24-by-7 marketing flywheel, which is your growth strategy, and we audit that as well. And oftentimes, as simple as pie, there's just pieces missing from that whole process. And that's a huge unlock because there's a leak in the funnel or a piece of this funnel is very weak and can be improved upon. So it's kind of taking a piece at that growth strategy. Once you have that set up, the third thing I look at is team, right? Do we have the right people on the bus to execute? And when we're looking at this, this marketing growth strategy and understanding what are the weak pieces, it's usually an indication that we need to bring in a little bit, maybe make a smaller investment to make sure we're getting that done right. And that could look like maybe you need to bring someone in as employee, but most times it's like, let's bring an agency to upgrade this. Or let's do an audit on this and get a contractor to come in to make sure that this is upgraded, that this is going to get the results that it needs. It could be as simple as getting a really good conversion copywriter. It could be getting a more professional ads manager. It could be a UX, a user experience professional, like expert when it comes to website design. It could be that your automations, right? When after sales calls, there's so many things that we can automate to keep that client, that prospect front of mind, right? So there's so many ways that we can enhance what's going on, but we need the right people that have the skills to do that. So we got to get the right people on the bus, so to speak. And then the last piece of that is the leadership piece. That's the fourth piece. So do we have our KPI set up? Are they designed in a way that align with our business outcomes? Right? And and this is the piece that I love because often this is that connection from the head of sales that you need to align with them. You need to align with the CEO. You need to understand what the forecasting is. This is the advanced piece that folks like you and I feel comfortable talking in. This is things that your marketing manager is going to make their head spin trying to figure out what those targets should be. And that's a huge value of having someone with experience as your ally. Because we're not afraid of the, of to break it down to the numbers and match what is realistic in terms of the past data and what the actual targets that are going to be, you know, realistic, but a little bit of a reach. This is how we start to build confidence in the team that we start, right? That they can reach those goals, that it's stretching them a little bit to think. And so we start building on a real department and a real marketing function in our business. So that's kind of. That's kind of the behind the curtain look of how I conceptualize this whole process. But in the end, it's really the only way that I have found to really get a truly sales focused marketing program inside of a B2B business.
Bill: No, and Victoria, I think that's right on. And I think one of the things that's missing in a lot of companies, even if they have a fairly competent internal marketing function, is the ability to disseminate and look at that from a scorecard KPI alignment frame. And I think one of the biggest issues there is the acceptance of failure. Whenever we're in a senior-level strategic role, we are coming up with theories. We are testing those hypotheses. We are running experiments and tests in the marketing function. And one of the things I see in the marketing manager role is they are very hesitant to say, this isn't working. This failed. Well, that doesn't mean we didn't work hard and we didn't try something and we aren't getting closer to pay dirt. It just means that we have to try other things or optimize in other ways. Like you said, so I think that fractional CMO, that consultative approach, that strategic approach, that layer is so important to bridge the gap between the marketing function, the C-suite. And then also, like you said, making sure that we're getting alignment with the sales function, making sure that we are, it's going, MQLs are great, SQLs are better. What's the best is paying customers, right? So we have to make sure that, right? We wanna see that journey, we wanna see the maturity. So, no, I think this makes a ton of sense. I love the framework and the way you break it down. And I know that within that framework, there are tons of many sub layers that you're not going over because we only have a few moments. But I love that framework. As you look at the current state of marketing and you have companies who are thinking about reaching out to a fractional CMO, thinking about reaching out to an agency with that strategic layer, what would you give them as a final takeaway as kind of like a, hey, if you get nothing from this call, if you get nothing from this episode, this should be your takeaway as you're thinking about 2025, you're thinking about budgeting, you're thinking about, oh, my marketing function needs to change course, it needs to go in a different direction. What would you share with them?
Victoria: Well, you know, my career has really in my education has been marked by this insatiable desire to learn from very successful CEOs and founders. So you mentioned Dan Martell. Dan was actually a client of mine and I had the opportunity to be inside of his business. And let me tell you, I've worked with founders that have built unicorn status businesses. I've worked with folks like Dan who have built and sold many businesses, but Dan himself is, I would say the master at systems. And he's able to have, you know, he sits as, well, at this point, probably not CEO, but he oversees dozens of companies because he actually has a different, another business that's just an acquisition business where he acquires different companies and he turns them around to implement his systems. Right. So through that experience of being sort of in the inside and seeing what can be unlocked when you have not just your marketing, but the business that is functioning in a systemized way, what is able to be unlocked, not just in terms of revenue, right? But in terms of the quality of life of you as the CEO, you as the owner and all of your C-suite, because when you have these systems in place, you move from chaos to clarity. Right? So I think that, you know, if the marketing function is the, is a piece that has been ignored, a piece that has not been invested in, a piece that has not been taken seriously. My invitation to you is to start thinking about how marketing could be a vehicle for making not just sales, but also customer fulfillment, customer service, all of even the internal marketing communications, right? When we have some real strategies in place, just how that could lift the entire organization, right? So I think that that, yeah. So, and again, I think that that is, I think that's, that says enough.
Bill: No, that's great. And I think if we can move from chaos to clarity, if we can move, and I'm sure many of these folks have looked at this like, marketing, we've never figured it out. How do these other people in my industry that are the leaders, that are the Fortune 500, how did they figure it out and I can't? Because a lot of these owners, founders and C-suite, they're very, very intelligent. They're very accomplished in their field, whether it's engineering or chemistry or whatever space they're in. Right. But they haven't figured this out. Well, it can be solved. It has never been easier or more attainable if we're just willing to think about it maybe a little differently, approach it a little differently, and allocate some time and money towards it. It is a problem that we can mark solved. It does not have to be this, to use the old analogy, that burr in the saddle that just keeps, you know, continually being a problem that throws the rider from the horse. Well, Victoria, this has been an amazing conversation. I love a lot of the perspective that you bring to this. I have been passionate about that consultative role, that fractional CMO approach for a long time, and we are seeing the value delivered to the market. And I know that you're seeing it, and I think sharing that and talking about it more is going to help really get this idea and move it forward and hopefully get some additional people to engage in this process. So I want you to give a shameless plug for your offering. We are all about it. So where can people find you? And also all of this information, our team will put it in all of the posts and on the YouTube channel and all of those things that our team does an amazing job that Bill doesn't do, but that they do an amazing job doing. So thankful to, shout out to Johanna and the team for that. But where can we visit with you and learn more about you?
Victoria: Absolutely. My name is Victoria Hajjar, so it's H-A-J-J-A-R, and I would love to connect with anyone via LinkedIn. That's where I spend a lot of my time. My company is called Ugli Ventures. So that's ugly with an I, U-G-L-I-V-E-N-T-U-R-E-S, because business can be ugly sometimes, especially when it comes to marketing, right? So to find out more about me, you can go to ugliventures.com. And if you go to, you know, work with me, there's a tab that's going to talk about that CMO role. So you can click onto that, or if you're interested in upleveling that marketing function in your business, right? If you, you have someone in that marketing role, but you feel like they need some more support to get to the next level. And you know, would love to implement this framework that I mentioned, you can check out my accelerator option or just go straight to ugliventures.com/accelerator and can learn about that as well. And I would love to hear, know, any, again, DM me on LinkedIn if you have just any questions about marketing. I love talking marketing and breaking down big concepts, making it easy to understand.
Bill: Love it, Victoria. And just an amazing conversation. I think if I was going to give like a recap comment of what we've done is we've really taken the fractional CMO role and we've talked about how it can impact your business, how we can go from chaos to clarity and how we can, whether it's a strategic tactical implementation or coaching, we can move organizations forward. So definitely reach out to Victoria. If you have any questions, all of those contact details will be in the all of the places we post this. So, Victoria, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Victoria: Thank you so much. It's been my absolute pleasure.