In this episode, Bill sits down with Heather Barnett, a 20-year B2B marketing veteran turned freelance copywriter who has carved out a unique niche by infusing humor into LinkedIn content. Heather shares her journey from agency and client-side leadership roles to freelancing, how humor helped her stand out in the crowded world of B2B marketing, and why consistency is critical for personal branding.

Gain insights into making technical B2B copy engaging, why brands should embrace personality and humor, and the pitfalls of playing it too safe in industrial marketing.

Bill: Thank you for joining the Missing Half podcast where we're discovering what's missing in manufacturing and B2B marketing. Today, I have a very special guest with me, someone I've been wanting to have on the show for such a long time, Heather Barnett. Heather is a 20-year veteran in B2B marketing on both the client and agency side. She's transitioned into freelance copywriting about three years ago. And what caught my attention about her is her absolute commitment to humor in B2B marketing and how she delivers that through her LinkedIn content. Heather, welcome to the Missing Half show today.

Heather: Thank for having me, I'm very pleased to be here.

Bill: So Heather, I want to kind of ask you, what was the moment where you decided, because somewhere underneath your professional psyche and your professional approach to business, there had to be this comedic spirit trying to get out, right? Because you don't just someday wake up and say, I'm going to do comedy in B2B. I don't think any of us went to the guidance counselor or whatever you guys have in the UK in that space. What was the moment that really you decided to let that muse take flight?

Heather: So it was definitely linked to being freelance. I thought, I think it's just a bit easier when you're not working for a company and you only have yourself to answer to. You can be a bit freer with this kind of stuff. So that's probably why it came out when it did. But I think you're right, it's always been there. So, you know, I did a lot of writing from being a very young child and it always had a bit of a, not always, I probably went through the teenage angst period of writing poetry, but you know, other than that, was probably always a comedic slant to it. And I've done you know, a standup comedy course, I've done a sketch comedy course. There's always been something in the background where I've, you know, I've had that interest and I've gone off and investigated it separate to work. But then going freelance suddenly it was kind of like, actually, this might be quite a good moment to use it in a working environment.

Bill: No, it's been fascinating to watch. I know there's some themes that you're approaching in the B2B space that sometimes just make me laugh, like just laugh out loud. And other times they're a little bit dark from a standpoint they hurt a little bit, because it's like, that's how my team probably thinks about me. So no, I mean, you're really exploring all of the comedy aspects and it's just been fascinating to watch. Let's talk about your journey, Heather. So you kind of talked about, you know, we went way back there really quick to the teenage years, maybe more in the professional, talk about that–

Heather: Yeah, Yeah, I'm not gonna go that far back again.

Bill: Talk about your history and what led you to where you are today.

Heather: Yeah, so I've always worked in marketing pretty much. So yeah, as you said about 20 years, I, without going right back again, I went into marketing because I wanted to do a creative job. So I wanted something where I would have an outlet for that creativity. And I think, you know, I worked client side as the head of marketing, I worked agency side, I was a client director in agency and I was head of marketing in agency. But I think what most of us find as you go through your career, as you take on more responsibility, you actually do less and less of the creative thing maybe that got you into it in the first place. So I got to a point of thinking, do you know what, I think actually I'd like to try doing something where I could just focus on writing content, you know, ideas, all that kind of stuff. And so that's why I left my agency job three years ago. Not really knowing if it would work, you know, going freelance, but thinking well if the worst comes to worst, I'll get another job. You know. But spoiler alert, it has worked. Hooray. So I'm still here three years on and still, and generally really, really it's right for me. It's not right for everyone obviously to be freelance, but it really, really does work for me.

Bill: Yeah, because that's the spoiler, because we're not going to have a bit at the end where you're open to work for applying for the job. That's great. Let's unpack that a second. So one of the things I'm very passionate about and I think is very important, I came from the client side and then I went into the agency space. How valuable is it for young professionals, even if they want to launch an agency or if they want to get into marketing for them to spend time on both sides of the aisle to understand how it really works?

Heather: I found it really useful. And I have to say having moved from client side into agency side and worked with some graduates who'd come in pure agency side, there was a certain amount of impatience, I think with clients kind like, why don't they just sign this off? Why don't they just move things along? You know, come on, look. And it's kind like, actually, when you've worked there, it's like, because their boss has just pulled the budget or the CEO has changed or, you know, something else is going on and it's a different pace in a, in the client side. So for me going the other way. Well, same as you, suppose, potentially, it was actually quite a shock to the system because client side, it's kind of like, you know, you get things done, but it's like, okay, well, we need to this pretty soon. So we'll do it on, I don't know, next Wednesday. And you go agency style, it's like, we need to do this pretty soon. So that'll be half an hour. You know, it really is that different.

Bill: Yes. The pacing is completely different. The expectations are different. And sometimes I've seen where people cannot make the transition. If they're used to the client side, it's more slow and steady wins the race. And if you're on the agency side, you move from client to client, to-do, to-do, like, I mean, and you have to be quick or you'll be caught like, yeah.

Heather: Yeah. You have to think on your feet, don't you?

Bill: And if you don't do it quick for that client, you're going to get fired and they're going to move on. So there are two different animals, but I agree with you. Understanding the different rhythms on both sides of the aisle and how those have to interplay for a successful client-agency relationship is gives some of us who've been on both the good and bad side of the force, I guess, however you want to characterize which one we won't say, that it gives us a perspective that is an edge over those who've just been on one side or the other.

Heather: Yeah.

Bill: So you were on the agency side, on the client side, and then you went into this freelancing journey. And congratulations. Being an entrepreneur, I think we've all been in that moment where, oh we could always go get a job. Like that's our fallback. But that doesn't make it any less scary or any less grueling in that initial transition. Maybe talk us through a little bit of that hero's journey. Like OK, here was, OK, I took the leap. And here was like where I went from panic and despair to, I think this could actually work, right? And I'm not talking specifically to you. That's just the entrepreneur’s… That's the life. Like that's the life cycle. Yeah.

Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking, did you see me this morning? What's going on? Panic, despair, and then, you know, moved on. It was fine. Yes. Okay. So I think I was lucky. Was I lucky or is it that you do this at the right point in your career? Because I think when I left the job, I knew that I had, you know, as I said, I've been working in this quite niche B2B sector for 20 years. So I know quite a lot of people. So it wasn't like I was going into a void, where I was thinking, I don't know where the work's going to come from. It was like, I'm pretty sure I could probably speak to so-and-so who went to that agency and they might be able to refer me onto someone else or whatever. And I think it'll probably come back to things that I can imagine we're going to talk about later, which is it's about having a, when I say having a personality, don't mean I have a special personality. I mean people buy from people. People buy, people want to be referred to somebody they know. They want to, you know, they want to understand who you are. They don't just really want to go to a website and pick a copywriter kind of thing. It's all built on networks and relationships. And I think that's something you realize as you go further into your career is like, that's so important is how well you work with other people and, you know, building that network. So when I left, although it was a kind of like, oh God, I hope I can get enough work. A, I was lucky that my agency was my first client. So they kept on working with me on a contract basis. So, you know, and I still do some work for them. But also I, all I did to advertise myself really was put a post on LinkedIn and say, this is it, I'm taking the jump, you know, and then I sent an email out to about a handful of people, I’d say less than 10 people and got a couple of things back and that for the first, you know, six months to a year, that was enough was just that immediate kind of like, I still had quite a lot of work from the agency and then other people were passing me work because it was the novelty of kind of like here I am I'm doing this thing and people want to help you as well. Because that's the thing I think what you don't realise is sometimes you don't want to kind of say, Hello have you got a job for me? Or you, if you've got any work because you don't want to bother people, but actually it makes people feel good if they can refer you to somebody else, and I think we all, you know experience that ourselves as well. I like to be able to connect people together who might work well together so a lot of that was happening.

Bill: Awesome. I love that. How did–so you hang the shingle out, you send the emails, you get some jobs. What then led to the humorous posting? Or had you been doing that prior to?

Heather: I had been doing that in a different part of my life. So outside of the day job, I sometimes write fiction. So I'd published a couple of books with a very small publisher and there's no marketing budget. So I'd done a couple of funny videos on Twitter and they'd gone really well. And so it'd always been part of me thinking, can I ever do that on LinkedIn? But as I said, when I was still with a company, that was just a part of my brain kind of going, no, it's, you know, I'm a professional. I can't do silly things on LinkedIn. But then I think seeing people like Rob Mayhew, so I'm sure you're familiar with Rob Mayhew, he's kind of a British influencer who is very, very funny guy and he does a lot of kind of agency folk topics, you know, just funny videos. And I was seeing him and thinking, oh, hang on, he's doing it on LinkedIn and it's working and you know, and he's obviously not so worried about the professional side of things because he's funny, you know, and people are still understanding that he's a professional, but he's joking, it's a joke kind of thing. So that's why I started thinking, maybe I could do it on LinkedIn. And I think probably what triggered it was getting to a point of that initial burst of kind of referrals and stuff was maybe starting to tail off. And I was thinking, I need to find something to keep that pipeline going. And I tried a few different things on LinkedIn. So I didn't go straight to the videos. I tried to kind of, you know, just wrote some written posts or some photos or whatever, but it's, that finding your thing that you're comfortable with and that, you know, not trying to be someone else or not trying to do something that's the other people are comfortable with. For me, it's, always comes back to humor and comedy. That's what I love. So I did the first video, which was about, it was kind of poking fun at B2B content, how dry and boring it is and how we expect people to stop and spend time for it. When actually they've got so many other things that are entertaining them. And I put it out and it did really well. It got kind of like 400 nods likes, which I was, yeah, I'd never got anything like that, not ever on a LinkedIn post. So that was what made me kind of think, oh, okay, maybe. Maybe this is the way forward. And then I did another one. And then I went, my God, I'm absolutely literally was overwhelmed with new business inquiries. So then I did the stupid thing that you should never do and that you would never advise a company to do, which is I stopped doing new business. I stopped putting any videos out for about six months. I was like, I’m too busy. I haven't got time for this. I've got all my day job work to do. And then obviously the same thing at six months later, was like, hang on. This stuff is starting to… it’s starting to dry up again. And that’s when you realise that you need to be more consistent with it.

Bill: Isn't that, even as marketing professionals who know better, isn't that true that we fall into that trap? Right? I mean, it's usually like end of a quarter and you're looking at the pipeline for the next quarter and you're like, wait a second, man, the pipeline's drying up. Is AI really killing our business or is the economy that bad? And then you get back on the phone, you put a little bit more fuel in the engines and two weeks later, your pipeline’s starting to build again. And you and I know better, right? Like, it's not like we're…

Heather: But we're all human beings, aren’t we? And it's kind of like you get busy and you think, I haven't got time for that. And yeah, so it's always a little bit of that up and down.

Bill: So one of the things you touched on, and I think it's an important point to recognize, is like, let's say I go out to eat with a CEO for lunch and the first half hour to 45 minutes, we're having personal talk, we're joking, we're having fun. And then after lunch, we're like, okay, hey, let's talk business a little bit and let's get down into the details. And the tone changes and it becomes very technical. And there can be some things that we disagree on or, like it gets into business. I mean, and some tough conversations are had because, hey, we really feel your organization needs to do this. The CEO might be pushing back and say, Hey, we don't feel your agency's meeting our needs here. Right. Like that's… But when I think people think about their personal branding and their content on LinkedIn, they think they can't have any of that first half hour of–even though they would in a normal setting–that has to go. We have to be super professional. It's only about, you know, let's look at the variance and the KPIs and like math and very specific analytics and how are we winning? Whereas you've proven and a number of others that humor can absolutely have, like, carve out its own space. And I think to a certain extent we need it because if not, it's a dry day and stressful.

Heather: Yeah. It's odd, isn't it? It's almost like we don't know ourselves very well, or we think that we are different to everybody else. It's got a, like, we like funny things. Obviously we like, you know, watching a funny video or reading something funny, but the CEO, no, doesn't, no. He doesn't want any of that. You know, he just wants everything to be very, very straightforward and professional. So I can't explain why that is. I don't know why, you know, you open LinkedIn and start typing a post and suddenly you become a robot and you must, you know, run it through ChatGPT or whatever it is before you put it out there. I can't explain it, but certainly what you said is completely true. I think if people did think a little bit more about how relationships are built offline, they would put a bit more of that personality and humour into the online content that they do.

Bill: I've put a ton of posts out. I put a ton of podcasts out. I've done, the team clips all the stuff, put, right? The best performing post ever is me holding up a sign that says “I am the problem.” And then goes through like, you know, sales aren't up. I'm the problem. If operations, like, and then the whole way from like a professional standpoint to a personal, I had like 10 points. But that was the number one post. We've posted case studies. We've posted interviews with some amazing people like yourself. That was the number one post because maybe the humanity of it. People relate and other people, especially if they're type A, have those moments where they're like, yeah, I know I'm the problem. I, like they're hard on themselves, whatever. But that that is what I've seen. I'm not funny. My children will tell you that. Even my dad jokes are like in the probably the lowest quartile of performance in the dad joke Olympics. But well, let me ask you this and you touched on it. And I think this is an important item, whether you're doing personal branding or not with comedy, what has the role of consistency played in building like a sustainable pipeline and not only a pipeline, just active viewers who we know could become pipeline. I mean, there's people who are seeing your videos today that could be a client in five years, right? Like that's the way it works.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's been crucial for me. And I think it's been crucial in the way that any branding needs consistency. It almost needs a leap of faith because you don't always know what it's doing. And that's why, you know, we struggle so much as marketers to justify brand marketing because you can't always relate it directly back to a sale, for example, but you are building that mental availability. So, you know, if I'm out there every week and someone's seeing my videos, they're not always engaging with them, they're not even maybe always watching them but they'll see it in their feed. If they're then thinking I need a copywriter for such and such, they're going to think of me as opposed to the person they've not interacted with for six months or a year, it just makes sense. And it's, you know, it almost, I suppose it almost doesn't matter what the videos are, it does matter what the videos are but I think you know there's different levels of it, it's like the fact that I'm there consistently is something is a starting point because that is just the mental availability and then I've got the kind of brand perception that I'm you know, creating through the humor. So then they kind of know what kind of person I am or what kind of writing I might do. But for me, the consistency, I mainly post on LinkedIn. I've started posting on TikTok recently as well. I don't really know what I'm doing over there. I've just got a profile and I just put the same video on there and I just kind of like leave it. But LinkedIn, you know the algorithm is a black box. I don't, you know, I'm sure lots of people would love to know how it works. And that's what I can't say for sure, but it does appear to me that the more I put, you know, the more regularly I post, the more it rewards me for that, because I think people are looking out for it, if they've liked the previous one, they're looking at, you know, they're seeing the next one and then they're engaging with it. So I definitely have seen, I've seen a growth in followers. I've seen a growth in, you know, it's not linear, but sometimes I'll put a video out and it'll flop and, you know, and it'll be hard to get anything. But over time, I think I'm seeing a growth in the amount of people engaging with the videos and viewing the videos and stuff and that, and some of that has to be to do with consistent posting.

Bill: No, I love that. And how did you get over the first couple that flopped? And not that the first ones did, whenever you have a real one that just tanks, how do you get over that?

Heather: Partly I'd look at what other people's posts are doing and just kind of think, am I an anomaly? Is it my post that's rubbish? Or is it generally happening? And quite often when it does, when that does happen, you can tell because other people on LinkedIn are going, what's going on? My reach has dropped and whatever. And then at least I can kind of go, okay, it's not just me. But also sometimes it's like, okay, I'm not getting many likes on the video, but I'm also not getting many impressions and why, I can't, I have no control over that, over how many people it's being shown to. So it might be, you know, something, it might be the video is okay, but not many people are seeing it. So they're not engaging with it. And at the end of the day, I have to just let it go. Cause there are videos that I do that I kind of think, this is a brilliant one. They're going to love this. This is my favorite one I've ever done. And like nobody will be like… it's rubbish. And then one that I've done at the last minute where I've kind of, Oh God, I must put a video out. Just do this one. It will kind of rocket. And I'll be like, what? Like you cannot predict what people are going to like and what they're not going to like. All you can do is something that you think is funny and put it out there and hope that people find it and engage with it.

Bill: I think that that's the LinkedIn journey that we're all on. Those of us who post content, because I've put some content out. I’m like, I'm going to be featured on the news channels like they're going to be lining up. I'm going to get a book deal, like it's–

Heather: TV are going to pick this up straight away.

Bill: Yeah, this is going to be national news. And, you know, I'll get a handful of views and then I'll do something that's off the cuff, I think is terrible. And it just takes off. So maybe what that says about me is that the terrible is who I am in the, anyway, we won't get on that path.

Heather: You are the problem. I think we've established that already.

Bill: Yes, yeah, yeah. I'll hold, I'm gonna write a note here to talk to my therapist about that later to make sure that that needs to be covered. One of the things in comedy I think that's important to recognize is like balancing being edgy and like taking the risk but not going too far. How have you balanced that? Because a lot of your work is just insanely brilliant and so cutting and so right on. But I've never seen any of your content that goes too far. It's just right down the middle or whatever you would call that. How do you balance that and how do you approach that?

Heather: I think some of that is probably to do with general comedy principles. I mentioned I went on a standup comedy course a while ago, which I loved. But one of the things I do remember from that was they talked about punching up and punching down. And I think that is really important. So you should always be punching up. Essentially, you should always be kind of like attacking people who can take it or people who deserve it or whatever. You know, you don't want to be someone to be the butt of your joke that's, you know, a vulnerable figure or… I'm never trying to be nasty about anyone in particular. I am poking fun gently, I think, at things that I think we all recognise. And the things that I do myself as well, it's not, you know, I'm never putting myself on a pedestal and saying, I've never used the word leverage or, you know, whatever. We're all kind of like making similar mistakes or, the reason it's funny is because we recognise it in ourselves, I think.

Bill: Yes.

Heather: So I think that's what it is, is that I don't want to offend people. don't want to, you know, I'm not going, I'm not doing it because I want to make people hurt or upset or angry. I'm doing it because I genuinely like making people laugh. So that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to come from a good place. I suppose that's what it is.

Bill: Have you been able to integrate your approach to humor into any of your clients’ work? And the reason I ask that is I've had a number of conversations with CEOs and they're like, yeah, we want to be more edgy in our social media. We want to like push the envelope. And then you come up with some creative and some ideas and they're like, yeah, that's not it. That's, that's what.

Heather: Not like that!

Bill: Yeah, not like that. That's the wrong thing. Have you been able to like bridge, cross that bridge into like taking that humor and deliver it for clients? And I'm not implying that you would, they would have a personal brand with humorous content, but like just kind of take those angles with some of the content you write for them.

Heather: I would say that 90% of the content I write is not funny. It is the just standard, you know, I might try and make it, we will try and make it entertaining and they might have some kind of like funny bits in it or whatever. But it is not comedy content or funny content. I'd say the only thing I can kind of reference is where I've been asked to perform for a client event, for example. So that's something, so for example, there's an agency over here called Radish and they had a client event and they asked me to come and open it with a 15 minute, essentially a B2B roast. So it was basically kind of, you know, doing a skit where I am kind of like poking fun at the B2B community in the sense of like the language that we use, all the kinds of things that I talk about in my videos. And that worked really well for them because, it, they kind of said afterwards, it almost kind of gave them license to then be a bit more playful in their own stuff afterwards and it set a tone of kind like this isn't going to be your standard B2B conference, it's a bit more fun, it's a bit more playful, we're going to be a little bit kind of edgy, maybe, with it. So I think I suppose that is one example of where somebody's asked me to use my writing abilities, although it was also performance, to help them maybe take a more refreshing angle on something.

Bill: No, that's great. And I think maybe that's a takeaway that maybe that's something that's missing for us in the greater B2B community that we need to be more willing to introduce even like, should we introduce humor into some of our Zoom meetings? Like the intros, like, I don't know if you know the Marketoonist comedy strips and stuff like that, license some of those if we're starting on a topic with that client. Like be a little more edgy and try and create more safety for everybody to be more creative. Because the other thing is if you have senior-level in internal company talent on a call and then some juniors, they're not going to speak up with crazy ideas because they don't want to get in trouble. You know, they're hoping the agency can take the brunt of feedback on those items. So maybe that's something that's missing in the approach we're all taking in this profession. And we need to–we can't go from 99 items in a row that are super serious and then dabble in a little bit of comedy or a little bit of creativity. We need to start nurturing that muse every day and then see where there are moments, it could pop up and be really effective as opposed to like, I'm super serious Sam and now all of sudden I'm funny Sam. That would shock the brand, that would shock the community because that would be inconsistent with the brand and what it's doing. So that's interesting. We're always trying to find what's missing. Go ahead.

Heather: Yeah, no, I was going say you do get, you know, if you think of people that you, people that stop me scrolling on or make me read articles or listen to podcasts or whatever, there are the, you know, Mark Ritzen, Rory Sutherland, people like that. They are incredibly authoritative, but they're also funny. I know they're going to be funny, you know, so I'm watching because, and I don't find them less authoritative because they're funny, you know, so I don't think that, I think sometimes it's that. There's a paradox where people will think, I'm funny, people won't take me seriously. And it's just not the case when you think about examples of, kind of respected marketers.

Bill: Well and I think this is a much better approach, or any approach is better than some of the activity I've seen on LinkedIn over the past several years where people kind of pick fights with each other on topics and just go after each other. And it's just, I mean it's not Facebook. It's not that type of scenario. So anything is better than that. So like if it's comedy, if it's whatever.

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Bill: Let's switch gears here a little bit. We talked about comedy, we talked about your personal brand, we talked about this thing. Let's talk about copywriting. I'm a bit of a copy nerd. I believe there's such tremendous value in copy still. I mean when you think about some of the founding fathers of marketing and you think about Ogilvy or some of those big names and you think about the copy that they generated back in the day with the headlines and the way they constructed magazine ads, because that was it, right? For the big brands. We have returned to that moment because if you're not grabbing them in five to seven words in one to three seconds, they're gone, right? They're turning the page or flipping the screen or scrolling or whatever. When you're looking at effective copywriting approaches, like where do you start a project and how do you like to begin with a client when you're doing your freelancing engagements?

Heather: It's always about the questions for me, I think, because when we talk about copywriting, the words at the end of the process, essentially, to me, they are at the end of the process. It's like, yeah, the words have to be right. But actually, it's the thinking and the, you know, the kind of getting to the right point. So it's always thinking about what is going to make this product, person, company, whatever it is, interesting to people. What is different about this company? What is the nugget that is going to set it apart? How can I then express that? So a lot of what I do when I first start working with people, it will depend on the project, obviously, because it might be something that's quite clear cut, like they want me to come in and write a report, they've got some research, they want it written up into a narrative. But if it's a kind of deeper, broader project, I normally will just start with a lot of questions and try to find out more about the company. Why did it come to operate in the way that it did? What are they trying to achieve? Who is the audience where things are working well? You know, what are competitors doing? And I'll go off and do a bit of competitive research as well. As I say, depending on the type of project, but it always, it's always it's curiosity, I suppose, is what starts off. I just, I'm wanting to understand, cause there'll always be something interesting about it. It's just like, how do I get to that so that I can then help advise on maybe what the content format should be, how we should write it up, what's going to make it sound different.

Bill: Whenever you look at like really technical content, so maybe not a report, but like if there's a specific product or service, which in B2B we all have these products and services and they're very technical, usually in nature, how have you found or do you have like a model or an approach to making that content less boring and more engaging for readers?

Heather: I guess it is always trying to first of all find out what is that nugget of information that is different. So often I think, sometimes I sound a bit mean, but some copywriters will go in and they will take the surface information they're given and they will just write that up into a nice piece. And most of time that isn't going to work. So if you're given some notes, say for example, from a company that kind of like, here's the product. This is what we think about it. Can you write that up? You could do that, but, but it's not really going to work. So to me, it's more going, okay, this is what you think about the product at this point. But why do you, why do you think that? What, what, what is the customer, what job to be done that they're struggling with? Why did, why did you design it like this in the first place? What are your sales teams saying that, you know, the customers are resonating with and that, and then how can we take all that and think about presenting it to them in a way that's new and a bit surprising. You know even with your kind of like, I am the problem. Yes, it's funny, but it's also surprising. I think that's probably why people stop because it's kind of like, so what, what is that? We're all curious as human beings. You want to know what that is. So it's kind of like something that will create a bit of intrigue and just always, always being aware and respectful of the reader's time. I think that's the thing for me is that I think sometimes you read content and you just think, are you imagining that I have set aside an hour of my day to read your email? Because that's what I would need to kind of like, you know, dredge my way through this kind of boring and dry jargon or whatever it might be. That's not the case. I'm here and I've got 20 other things, you know, that's screaming for my attention. If I'm going to open your email or if I'm going to read your article or whatever it might be, you have to make it really interesting for me and clear why I should and fun and entertaining and you have to be doing that every single line. You can't, you know, you have to really put the effort into thinking, why should anyone carry on reading? You know, what's the so what, what are they going to get at the end of it, how am I making it fun or interesting or surprising for them all the way through. So I think it's just never being complacent and thinking that people are waiting to read your copy because they're not. Sorry, that sounded very, that's not you, I'm not talking about you, but just in general.

Bill: Yeah. So I see that you've been reading what I write and like, you've been checking out my copy and that's great constructive criticism. I'll take it as that. I'll cry a little bit.

Heather: I have not!

Bill: Yeah, I'll cry a little bit later, but that'll be my own thing. Is it, it's one of the things we struggle with when we're writing copy and we're, and let's go beyond copy. When we're preparing the video, when we're preparing the landing page, when we're doing the case study, whatever. Do we have to flip the script and say, guess what? It's okay that up to 90% of the people that see this aren't going to read it, but that the person it resonates with that has that problem, that has that job to be done, it is going to resonate with, and we are then going to help them potentially solve their problem. Whereas I feel like, and I run into this when I'm going to do a video, when I'm going to do content for my personal branding, I want everybody to love it. I want it to be for everybody and I want the accolades and the ticker tape parade and all that. When in fact, if a handful of potential clients saw it and responded to it, I am winning over and over and over again. Do we have to look at that, I don't know, glass half full and be excited about that moment as opposed to trying to please… the entire populace? Is that where we get into trouble with some of this content?

Heather: Yeah, I think it's being realistic, isn't it? And thinking, well actually, so to your point, yes, actually, a lot of this just isn't going to get read. That's the harsh truth of a lot of marketing collateral is never going to be read. So it's kind like, be as precious as you like about it, but actually at the end of the day, you need to get something done. You need to get it out. People may or may not read it. But I think an important point you're making is about relevance. Cause I think quite often people, they have five messages that they want to get out and they want to put it all in one piece of collateral and they want it to work for the finance team, the IT team, the HR, do you know what mean? It's kind of like, well, it's not going to work for any of them because the IT team care about managing systems and not getting loads of additional systems being added to what they're having to look after. The finance team would care about how much it costs and, and, you know, whatever, finance team people care about. But you know, and you have to understand that before you write it. And I think that's a lot of battles that you will have, I think is people think they're being efficient by putting all of that stuff in one piece of collateral and putting it out there. And they're not recognising that actually by making it so broad, it doesn't, it's not relevant for anyone.

Bill: Well it’s just noise. It gets skipped, flipped, scanned, scrolled, whatever through and never consumed. And it never helps anyone. And I think that's a challenge I see us facing in copy. And you're right. Often you send over the creative and it's like, well it doesn't have these other four points? Yes, that's the point. That is 100%. Yes, great. We're winning. Yeah.

Heather: Yeah, we've kept it concise and focused. Thank you.

Bill: Oh that's not going to work. And then we've come to the point where, I tell our clients, there will be moments when you want to fire us because we're giving you advice that you don't want to hear. And if, if we're doing that, I'm more than happy to live and die by that sword because… I was on a call with a SaaS company the other day we're doing some work for, and I finally had to say, team, we're not focused on the right thing here. We are going down a path that is not a priority and that may be a priority in six months. And I know no one wants to hear this because everybody's excited about this new development, but this is not going to move the needle for anyone for at least six months. We got to get it off the table. And it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't a fun moment for me. Like you want to be a people pleaser, you want to keep the client happy. But part of that is like telling them the harsh truths that they need to hear on some of these things. So.

Heather: And I think just, you know, I'm probably slightly segueing, but if we're thinking about the importance of human relationships and networks and stuff, and maybe the AI letters in the, the, you know, in the corner of my eye is kind of like, so much of marketing and doing good marketing is, political or it's organisational or it's understanding the different personalities involved and making those work together and helping people see, you know, why you're doing what you're doing. And that is not something that robots can do on their own.

Bill: Correct. One of the things I've been seeing some posts and some conversations about are, and I’ll have to figure out where I saw this and give attribution if it's like a really unique thought, but we're moving from an information economy to a wisdom economy in that information, now everybody can get information. Any one of us can go to any of the AI platforms and type in a question and it will, if you keep asking questions forever, it will keep dumping information on the screen. What you then do with that and how you process that, not only from a industry benchmarking and just experience standpoint, but then also the things you brought up. How are we gonna thread the needle with the board of directors that wants this and the C-suite that wants that and the finance team and all these different things that have to be managed that even if AI becomes “sentient”, whatever that means. I like, I keep hearing those words, whatever I don't know what that means yet because it hasn't. Because like I come in in the morning. I'm like AI do my job, I want to go home and do something fun and it doesn't do it like, so don't know what's happening. But I feel like there's that wisdom that we can bring to these situations that AI is a long way and may never ever be able to achieve… at least in my lifetime, who knows? Maybe it's two months from now and I'll be panhandling, who knows? Yeah. So do you see that, like, I mean, we're all contending with AI, we're all using AI, we're all trying to balance those things. What do you see in that AI space?

Heather: Sigh.

Bill: Heather, couldn't have said it better myself. I think that in a word, and I don't even know what language that was in, in an utterance, I think you captured the complete...

Heather: My feelings, the marketer's feelings of AI. I know lots of people are, I'm the worst person to ask about it, because I have tried a few times and I always get so frustrated that I just give up and I can't be bothered with it. I know there are, people are finding use for it and that's great, setting aside all the environmental problems and what have you. But in terms of producing copy, I'm never going to be convinced that it's going to produce good copy for almost every reason that we've talked about up to now in terms of like the human role that comes into making good. It can write copy. Obviously it can write copy, but do you want to read? I don't want to read it. It's just like, you know, I see so many people saying how pleased they are with the copy they've written with AI. I rarely see anyone say I really enjoyed reading this copy that's been written by AI. Again, it's writing for somebody else, not for ourselves.

Bill: Well and the part they enjoy is how fast it is and how little effort they put into it. It's not the actual work product or the effectiveness of it. It's the fact that, wow, that used to, like I used to actually have to read things and I actually have to research and think, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So no, I think we're all struggling with, and I think, you know, if you were going to do like a one act play on AI and you like, groaned and then it was like pause and then and and scene, there you’ve got it right? That's how we're all contending with AI. That's that's great. Let's let's pivot back a little bit to B2B copywriting trends. What are you seeing? This is something that I struggle with, like my son who says, hey dad you need to be more like Mr. Beast. You need to really focus on that first one to two second grab, that headline. And his critique, I think, is valid. You guys spend so much time on the features and the benefits and all the niche and understanding the technology. And then your team spends five minutes on the headline. And that may have worked before, but that's not going to work in 2025. And back to what we said, if nobody gets it or is, like if their attention doesn't go to it, it doesn't matter what's written underneath. How are you approaching that attention-getting, the headline, the thumbnail, those type of things in your copywriting to really drive awareness and attraction?

Heather: I think it's a very simple attitude of thinking about what does your reader want from you? So not thinking, what do I want to tell the reader? And actually that's never changed. That's good copywriting and good marketing throughout the ages. It's just how it's being presented. This may be a bit different. But I think quite often I'll read copy where people have… it will start off like X company is proud and delighted to announce that it's that it's like, nobody cares about, get rid of all that bit. What are you proud of and like, you know, just start from this is the product or, you um, I'll see something like our products and solutions are, um, designed to, uh, you know, something about how our expertise and what it is again, it's like, you need to start with if you're struggling with X, we can help you with, you know, what are they struggling with? Do they, what, why have they come to look at this piece of collateral? It's because they've got a problem or they've got an ambition. Basically they've got a problem or they've got a goal. So what might that problem be or what might that goal be? And if you can start, I think people struggle with that in the sense of they're thinking, I'm, I'm supposed to be marketing our products. I'm supposed to be talking about us. It's like, yes, yeah, you are, but, you have to grab them first by saying, I understand you've got a problem or understand that you're trying to achieve this thing. And, and I'm going to show you that I understand it by expressing it in a way that you can understand and that, you know, sounds like your language and, you know, and encapsulates what it is that you're trying to do. And then you've got, you know, they'll give you the benefit of the doubt for you to be able to then say, and by the way, I think I might be able to help you with it because we've got this thing here that can, that can help you. So what's the, whether you're doing a video or how it's slightly different for different formats, but like you're writing a piece, you're writing an article, you're writing a headline, whatever it might be. You have to be thinking from the through the readers’ eyes and thinking what are they looking for, what are they thinking about and what else are you competing with? Because I think that comes back to what I was saying before about, you know, don't expect people to be sitting down, you know, relaxing for an hour reading your copy because they've got, regardless of everything else going on in their lives, they've got so many other entertaining things they could be doing with their time and you're not just competing with other B2B copy, you're competing with like Netflix and TikTok and you know, whatever else is going on that's available for them. So I'm not saying that B2B content can maybe compete with Stranger Things or whatever it is that's on Netflix, but you've got to think about the fact that it's, be as entertaining as you can. There's nothing wrong, there's nothing to be ashamed about in being entertaining. I feel like sometimes there's that sense as well of like, yeah, no, but this is B2B, this is business, this is professional. We're not going to make it fun. There's something wrong with being entertaining, which there isn't.

Bill: So one of the things we've seen is that if we focus on that problem solution quickly, sometimes that's very uncomfortable for some of our manufacturing industrial clients because they want to talk about their new product that has a new name that they thought of that nobody knows about. But it's so important to focus on that user. I tell the team and our clients all the time, nobody cares about who you are or what you do until they know that you understand their problem and can solve it. What, oh okay. You're in my space. You understand what I'm dealing with and you may have a potential solution? Now I will read the subhead or the body copy or the next, if not, gone. Cause you're so right. It used to be, let's say 20 years ago, pre-internet, when you were at work, you were pretty much working. Now we have these beautiful devices that the employees can be and the team and ourselves. Let's be honest. When we have five minutes, we're not just looking at the Wall Street Journal or Forbes or whatever Adweek or whatever. We're watching Game of Thrones clips or our favorite comedian or sports or whatever else is on there. Right. So it's very, we have to be attention-grabbing. If you could give one piece of advice to anybody in B2B who's afraid of standing out, what would it be?

Heather: It would be, you should be more afraid of not standing out, genuinely, because what is the point? You know, if nobody's reading your content that you're writing because it's so bland or because it doesn't look any different to anything else, you're literally pouring money down the drain. And it might feel safer from your own personal standpoint of like, I don't want to put my head above the parapet in the short term. But actually if you're not helping your company grow, it's dangerous for you in the long term in terms of your career. It sounds quite harsh, but I think it is worth thinking about it like that because it's like, it is a risk not to stand out. It really is.

Bill: Well, if you're going to think about the negative and the ultimate negative on one side, you should also think about the ultimate negative on the other side, right? Because, okay, if the ultimate negative on one side is we don't want to stand out, we don't want to possibly embarrass ourselves or like that type thing. Well, what about the ultimate negative on the other side is that we spend all this time, energy and resources on things that are never read, never have an impact. And we all know, you know, there's all kinds of saying, if you're not growing, you're not, you're dying. All that, like, I mean, there's truth in the fact that if you're not marketing and your marketing is not working at all, that problem will come home. At some point in time, there will be a moment where we look back and say, oh three years ago, maybe we should have done something different because we haven't grown. We're in a spot. We're in a bad space. So I think that's, that's a great, great takeaway and piece of advice. Heather, where can listeners follow your work and connect with you? This is our shameless plug moment. So where can they find you?

Heather: So LinkedIn is probably the easiest place. So I think there's only one Heather Barnett who's a freelance copywriter on LinkedIn. So you should able to find me quite easily there. As I say, I'm on TikTok. I think it's Heather Barnett B2B on TikTok, just the same videos as LinkedIn. I don't really know what I'm doing over there. And then I have a website for my portfolio, which is HeatherBarnettwriter.com.

Bill: Excellent. And we will have all of those links and the references in the show notes and the footers and those, the team will include those. I also like to get those verbally. So, I can foresee in the future sometime us having you over here in the States for some type of event, because I am an avid fan. I think that one of my takeaways and what's missing in our approach is that if we want to be more edgy, creative and humorous in what we're doing for our clients, we can't introduce it as a piece of creative that is the 300th piece we've introduced to them over a three-year history. We need to start introducing that as part of the way we do business, the way we communicate, and we do, but then we don't recognize it and then we don't let it transition into work. So I think I could see that being an important part of the way we need, like what we're missing. And certainly I think the industry at large is missing. So I think that that could be part of the future. Well, Heather, this has been just a lovely conversation. I'm an avid fan of your work. One of the original videos you cut about the website kind of hetero communication and the inability of those to communicate completely ambiguous is one of my favorites. I go back, I actually have shared that with the team the other day when we were working on a website. I was like, watch this. This is the problem we're facing. We have no idea what we're talking about and neither does the client. Go back to work.

Heather: Yeah, I bet your team love me then. That's nice. Yeah.

Bill: Yeah, Heather is not like, that's great. You were the cudgel I used to beat them.

Heather: Brilliant. That’s good.

Bill: Yeah, so whenever you're over here, if you get some like dirty looks and like kind of brushed off by the team, you'll know.

Heather: Let's them start kind of shaking when I come around the corner.

Bill: But Heather, this has just been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Heather: Thank you. I've loved it. And how much have we laughed this conversation? How much brighter does that make your day, you know, than if you try and be serious and, and po-faced.

Bill: Yes, and so the team after watching this are probably going to be like, well, Bill, you and Heather were laughing. Why aren't you laughing now? Right. So maybe this is this is a like a seminal moment in my professional career where I'm going to become more funny and lighthearted. We'll see. Well, thank you again for joining us, Heather. And we will definitely have you back and looking forward to not only following along, but then maybe participating with you in some of this humor.

Heather: Thanks so much.

Bill: Thank you for joining the Missing Half podcast where we're discovering what's missing in manufacturing and B2B marketing. Like, share, subscribe. Have a great day.